#11 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 11:02 PM
JamAce's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philippines
Posts: 113
Rep Power: 161
JamAce is on a distinguished road
Default

Well then I guess Religion wasn't really the cause of war, but just an excuse.

FYI, there was a scene showed on ogrish.com I think about how people on some places (Southeast Asia I think) just cut off heads, hands with those who differ religions with them, It was a riot. It was unforgivable. I watched this clip years ago. Hope this would never happen again. If only I knew the link, I would gladly show it to you guys.
__________________
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2008, 11:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 33
Rep Power: 0
dreamr802 is on a distinguished road
Default

Yeah I don't think all religions are good...especially the ones that have sacrafices...a lot of the teachings from the mainstream religions are really good. Yeah and I do agree that not all wars and not even "most" wars are religion based...I think religion is somewhere in the mix of the reasons but wars are not based on religion.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2008, 12:46 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 45
Rep Power: 0
surfville is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanju123 View Post
Why they all are good because they all teach us to be good.No religion teaches its disciples to be rude or harsh, or guides us not to do our duty, does it? So at no point of time we can rate any religion better than the other, all are good.
I agree with you. In general, the goal of every religion is to preach God's teachings. They want there followers to do good; To live like how God lived His life.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 02:36 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 311
Rep Power: 163
sanju123 is on a distinguished road
Default

Yeah that is what I was touching.If we talk about general attitude, religions are mostly good and pious.I am never bothered about any thing else nor is any of my acquaintance.So it is the certain sect of society which have filthy minds they mould things according to themselves and leave bad taste.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:36 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 52
Rep Power: 161
bartimaeus13 is on a distinguished road
Default

Really? All religions are good? The teachings differ from the actual practice. The effect of religion all over the world, whether it was just an excuse or not, has led to many killings. Is the teaching of "turn the other cheek" really being done? "Do unto others what you want others to do unto you", it's really philosophical but that's not what people really live by.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2008, 01:42 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North Las Vegas, NV, USA
Posts: 314
Rep Power: 215
zteccc is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartimaeus13 View Post
... The effect of religion all over the world, whether it was just an excuse or not, has led to many killings.
Bartimaeus,

I would argue that you cannot generally hold the religions responsible for the killings that you mention. In most cases the religions themselves prohibit such killings and instead you have individuals who intentionally misrepresent the religions to further their own goals.

Case in point is the Spanish Inquisition. Certainly, the Catholic Church was involved since the monarchs who persecuted the Jews in Spain were Catholic, but those monarchs pressured the pope to allow it and then went far beyond the original charter. In general, an Inquisition would only apply to those baptized as Catholics and would result in fines or imprisonment if they were found to be heretics. The Spanish Inquisition, under direct control of the king, imposed torture (rarely) and the death sentence (even more rarely) on people who were not baptized Catholic, which was beyond what the pope had allowed, but the pope was unable to stop the Spanish monarchy in their actions. The monarchs were indeed the responsible people here and the religion became the scapegoat. Thus one cannot blame the Catholic religion for these killings, but instead the goals of King Ferdinand II of Spain (who was attempting to pull his country out of hundreds of years of Moorish rule).
As you suggest, religion is simply an excuse in this case, but if religion didn't exist, do you think that the exercise of power would not have happened? When Ferdinand came to power and began unifying Spain, he needed (in his view) to gather control under himself and that meant that he was going to use his power to put down dissidents. Even without religion there would have been dissidents and even without religion, Ferdinand would still have imprisoned and even killed people who disagreed with him, so while religion may be an excuse, it isn't a cause, and excuses are interchangeable, there would simply have been another one if religion weren't available.

Similarly, you'll find that most killings that are blamed on religion in fact should be attributed to individuals who have their own agendas.

That isn't to say that religions are totally blameless. There are some religions that encourage killings of those who don't follow their religion and there are some who have actively engaged in killings, but are they the majority?

You said that "the effect of religion all over the world ... has lead to many killings." I would argue instead that the major effect of religions all over the world has been to allow adherents to explore their spirituality and their faith and a small side effect has sometimes led to violence and death (as will any enterprise taken by human beings).

-- Jeff
__________________
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2008, 09:46 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 52
Rep Power: 161
bartimaeus13 is on a distinguished road
Default

I did not argue that I blame religions for the killings but rather, its effect in the world. People were and are still today being persecuted for their beliefs.

The biggest examples that I can cite is the Holocaust and the genocide of the Aztecs by the Spanish Conquistadors. The Holocaust needs no more explaining but in the case of the Aztecs, the Spaniards found the practices of the Aztecs, the sacrifices in particular as unholy. The Spaniards fought "in the name of God", thus it led to mostly to the extermination of the Aztecs. Also, Knights in the Medieval era used religion to justify their killings. They knew they could ask for absolution for the murders they committed, that did not stop them from killing. All over history, documented or not, you can find people being persecuted for their beliefs.

Although, I stand corrected with "the" part. I should have said that ONE of the effects of religion was that it had led to many killings. This part you can't deny. As I said, the teachings differ from the practice. Yes, they prohibit killings but history certainly would argue the contrary. You argued the USE of religion in killing. I was meaning to argue both sides of the coin. Persecution for beliefs. The 5 millions Jews were murdered because they were Jews.

I'm not saying the religion is bad but rather to contradict the statement, "All religions are good." Not all events in history can back that up.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 07:22 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North Las Vegas, NV, USA
Posts: 314
Rep Power: 215
zteccc is on a distinguished road
Default

Do you agree that without religion, those killings would still have occurred?

Do you think the Conquistadors would have found some other reason to subjugate the Aztecs and kill them?

Do you think that Medieval Knights would have fought and killed for some other reason (treasure, land, ethnicity, etc.)?

As to the Holocaust, I wouldn't diminish what happened in the least, but let us not forget that in addition to 6 million Jews, there were also 6 million Christians who died and as many as 2 million Gypsies as well as many political dissidents. Perhaps the real basis for the killings was more scapegoating and political repression (similar to what happened under Stalin, Mao, Castro, the Khmer Rouge, Hussein etc.).

I agree however, that religion has been an excuse, and a big one. It is an easy excuse and it doesn't require any evidence, or trials, it doesn't require any support, simply a statement that this or that is "evil" and people suddenly feel free to kill. Still, I suspect that in most of these cases, it wasn't religion that was the cause, but simply a tool. Similar to saying that guns are a tool for killing, not the cause.

Yes, I agree that not all religions are good. I also strongly support freedom of religion (even those I disagree with).

-- Jeff
__________________
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 08:00 PM
JamAce's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philippines
Posts: 113
Rep Power: 161
JamAce is on a distinguished road
Default

Then we all agree that " NOT all religions are good". We all know, I hope, the events regarding religions and know what would be right to say and not to say.

to add up, aren't cults and sects part of a religion? And Satanism is a religion right? making "ALL religions are good" false?
__________________
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 12:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North Las Vegas, NV, USA
Posts: 314
Rep Power: 215
zteccc is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamAce View Post
to add up, aren't cults and sects part of a religion? And Satanism is a religion right? making "ALL religions are good" false?
Well, if someone were a Satanist, they might disagree with your assertion, but in general, everyone can find some religion that they disagree with and therefore would classify that religion as "not good".

Perhaps it is better to say that the goodness of a religion is in the eye of the non-adherent to that religion. That would bring up an interesting question. Regardless of your personal faith, but from your personal viewpoint, which religions are the most "good"?

-- Jeff
__________________
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:56 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©1999-2008, Bluegoop.

A vBSkinworks Design


SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0