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View Poll Results: The military draft reintroduced?
Likely 5 62.50%
Unlikely 3 37.50%
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2004, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
If we don't get out of Iraq and Afghanistan very soon a new draft (here in the US) is simply inevitable. New [voluntary] replacements are just not coming in to the service anywhere near fast enough to keep the necessary force levels up.
your choice, if you want to ignore the facts. reenlistment goals are being met and exceeded. a draft is about as improbable as the use of nuclear weapons.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2004, 06:50 PM
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Support for the war in Iraq is eroding away very rapidly indeed. Look at the US news headlines every single day and you can see that. Only a blind man could possibly miss the trends. It's a slow, steady erosion, and it will pick up speed as time goes on.

It took a while for the draft to get rolling during the Vietnam war, too. Several years, in fact. And it took even longer for the antiwar movement to get rolling, and to finally end the war and the draft. Everybody turned against the war in the end. After just a couple short years NOBODY wanted to fight in Vietnam anymore, certainly not willingly. Recruiting for Vietnam was just fine for those first couple years too, but then it quickly began to drop like a rock, and in virtually no time at all recruiting dropped right through the floor. Soon everybody that was in the military was trying to get out of the military, and everybody else was trying to get out of being drafted, and damned few ever volunteered after that first year or two of the war. The draft simply became an absolute necessity back then, just as it will very soon become a necessity with this equally pointless war in Iraq as well.

This war in Iraq is now going exactly the same way Vietnam did, only much, much faster.

Give it some time, genius. You'll see that I'm right soon enough. If you're really keeping your eyes open you can see the signs all around you right now. The old familiar patterns are beginning to emerge everywhere you look. Read your Vietnam history while you're waiting for it all to come up to speed around you.

If Bush stays in office for another term the war will just go on and on. Bush has promised us all that much, many times. And if public support continues to fade away the draft will eventually have to begin. Nobody will want to go there just to die for a "lost cause" anymore. We will be forced to either draft people to go fight there, or we will have to abandon Iraq entirely, and Bush says he will never allow that to happen. We'll see.

I hope you're ready to put your ass (and your life) where your mouth is, genius. If you live here in the US and you're under 25 years of age you will be prime draft-meat yourself before too very much longer. As you should be. If you support the war in Iraq you should volunteer to go fight there yourself, and truly prove your support for the President and his war. Why wait to be drafted anyway, unless you're a fuckin' coward? Look at Pat Tillman! Emulate him. If you aren't willing to put your own ass where your mouth is then you're really nothing but a hypocrite, aren't you?

Support Bush = Join the Army yourself, and go fight for him. Uncle Sam Needs You! Right Now! Quick, before we loose! Bring the joys of democracy, capitalism, Coke and Playboy to those poor, oppressed Iraqi's! Go give your own life so that those poor Iraqi's can be free! It's the patriotic thing to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AP News - March 4 - 2004

WASHINGTON (AP) - Iraq probably will continue to be unstable and violent for more than a year, U.S. commanders said Tuesday in announcing plans to keep the current level of 135,000 American troops there through the end of next year [2005].

The decision acknowledges Iraq is much more dangerous than generals had hoped earlier this year, when they planned to cut the number of occupying troops to about 115,000.

Since then, violence by Sunni and Shiite Muslim extremists has surged, making April the deadliest month for American troops since the March 2003 invasion. Several U.S. allies also have decided to pull their forces out, most notably Spain, which had about 2,300 troops in one of the most volatile areas of south-central Iraq.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Tuesday ordered about 10,000 active-duty Army soldiers and Marines to prepare to ship out to Iraq in the next few months.

They will help replace 20,000 soldiers in the Army's 1st Armored Division and 2nd Armored Calvary Regiment who were being kept in Iraq for as long as three months past their one-year tours of duty.

Another 10,000 active-duty troops will be called up to fill out the replacement forces, Rumsfeld said.

Keeping such high troop levels in Iraq will further strain a military already stretched thin. All or part of nine of the Army's ten divisions are in Iraq or Afghanistan. Some analysts and retired generals say the Pentagon has to either expand the military or reduce its worldwide commitments.

"I think we can handle the tempo," said Air Force Lt. Gen. Norton Schwartz, the director of operations for the Pentagon's Joint Staff. "It is demanding, no question about it. But I haven't come to the conclusion that we need to grow the force yet."

The troops coming into Iraq will be more heavily armed than the forces they replace, with more tanks, armored personnel carriers and armored Humvees, said Schwartz and Army Lt. Gen. Richard Cody.

"The mission remains essentially the same. It's security and stability," Schwartz told reporters at the Pentagon.

Many of the troops being sent to Iraq have served there or in Afghanistan before. They will return to a country where ambushes and roadside bombs are more common and the political situation is unstable, with the United States set to hand limited power to a yet-unnamed Iraqi caretaker government on July 1.

The active-duty units ordered to Iraq Tuesday include the 2nd Brigade of the 10th Mountain Division, based at Fort Drum, N.Y. The Marine units are the 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit from Camp Pendleton, Calif., and the 24th MEU from Camp Lejeune, N.C.

The 10th Mountain Division has units in both Iraq and Afghanistan. About 25,000 Marines already are in Iraq, many of them in and around the volatile city of Fallujah.

Rumsfeld also approved sending 37,000 support troops to Iraq on Tuesday as part of the scheduled rotation of forces. Most of those troops are in National Guard and Army Reserve units.

A U.S.-based Army airborne brigade will be ready starting Friday to handle any emergency, Cody said.

Cody said commanders have decided which units they want to use for the main force in Iraq during the next year, but all of the active-duty units have not yet been notified.

Three enhanced separate brigades from the National Guard already are preparing to go to Iraq: The 256th from Louisiana, the 116th from Idaho and the 278th from Tennessee.

Keeping 20,000 more troops in Iraq will require more money, Schwartz said. Pentagon officials say they have not decided whether to ask Congress for additional money before the fiscal year ends Sept. 30.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200...D82C2L8G0.html
Now, when I say "Read between the lines" I assume you're smart enough to do so. Suppose you're one of these soldiers. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute:

Assume that you joined the Army or the Marines or the Guard or the Reserve for 4 years. Assume that you spend the first year stateside, in training. The second year you spend in Afghanistan. You are only supposed to be in Afghanistan for one year, but they extend you for three months (tough shit for your family back home, btw, so sorry) and then later for yet another 3 months. You're there for a year-and-a-half, total.

Finally you're going home again - they "promise" you that it'll be for at least 12 months. Minimum. By now you've done 2 1/2 years of your enlistment. If it was for 4 years you still have 1 1/2 years left to do. You're home for only 6 months and then you're told you're going back to either Afghanistan or Iraq for another "one year" tour - six months ahead of the "promised" 12-months-off schedule. Off you go, now! Don't complain!

You do another year over there somewhere. Now you've been in the service for 4 years, and you've been getting shot at in the Middle East for 2 1/2 of those years. Your time in the service is up and you can get out and go home if you want. Oh-no! They "involuntarily" extend your 4-year enlistment for six additional months! Can they legally do that? Well, they just did! Too bad for you and your plans! You're there for another six months and that's that!

At last your time in the service is finally up. You signed up for 4 years and you did four-and-a-half, with three years of that in a combat zone. What do you do? Reenlist and stay in, or cut your losses and get the hell out?

I think that there is soon going to be a mass flood of guys opting for getting out of the service, while they still can, the first chance they get. A lot of those guys over there are just now becoming eligible for discharge, or will very soon. And when they come home they'll be telling stories that would make any other sane person try their damndest to avoid having those same experiences themselves. Just like Bush did his best to avoid the experience of Vietman himself. So did Cheney. So did Rumsfeld. So did Wolfowitz. They weren't stupid! They knew better than to go into the military themselves! Everybody knew better! Only idiots like Kerry and draftees went to Vietnam, in the end. And Iraq will become exactly the same.

If the guys that are in the service now stay in they know they'll be spending 3 out of every 4 years in some dusty, godforsaken hellhole that's not even remotely worth fighting over, let alone giving their lives for. And they know they'll be stuck doing the same thing again and again over the remainder of their military careers, or until they are killed; whichever comes first.

It's an absolute no-brainer. Nobody wants to die for nothing.

So we will need a LOT of fresh meat pretty soon here...within the next two years, tops.

Give it some time, genius. You'll see.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2004, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
If you're under 25 years of age and a US citizen you will be prime draft-meat yourself before too very much longer. As you should be. If you support the Iraq war you should volunteer to go fight there yourself, and truly prove your support for the President and his war. Why wait to be drafted, unless you're a coward? If you won't put your own ass where your mouth is then you're really nothing but a fuckin' hypocrite, aren't you?
i am neither under 25 nor a us citizen and as i already explained, the army has found me unfit for service, they would turn me down if i applied.
time will prove me right, although you will probably refuse to admitt it.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2004, 09:31 PM
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Only way I'll have to admit it is if Bush pulls out of Iraq entirely, and we don't need a draft. Do you think that's what's going to happen?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2004, 04:05 PM
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I've already served in the army. It's great and everybody can find his purpose.

However, some people are fitted to serve as basic soldiers and other are fitted to lead. Other unfitted for such responsibilities as to serve his country just have to do the dirty jobs they deserve and some that are better out of the battlefield in the research or technical support are in charge of that less glorious but most usefull task.

It would be great to establish the draft. It is a glue for any democratic and civilized country. I suppose that those slappings or whatever humiliating attitude against prisoners would have never happened if the Army in Iraq would have been embodied by the draft.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2004, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janlefev

It would be great to establish the draft. It is a glue for any democratic and civilized country. I suppose that those slappings or whatever humiliating attitude against prisoners would have never happened if the Army in Iraq would have been embodied by the draft.
obviously you haven't changed much...

Please explain, why does a draft prevent torture?
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2004, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
A new draft won't actually start until after the upcoming elections, because it's such a politically sensitive issue that nobody on either side wants to bring this up at the moment, but once the election is over the plans will be quietly presented, and it will begin.
ok, Ranger, is it beginning?
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2004, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genius
ok, Ranger, is it beginning?
Ironic, isn't it. At the moment, there's about.. five republicans who hasn't actually voiced some kind of criticism against how the war has been handled, or against Rumsfeld's "you go to war with the army you have (even if it means more casualties and less efficiency than optimal - or as what was promised)". So now it becomes even more obvious than earlier that it is a clash between belief and fact, and not between determination and weakness as it seems some believe it has been so far. Actually, even the representatives most bent on war in the first place begin to realize that unless something is done with "the Plan", the entire farce will fail miserably with both the american public and the Iraqis, no matter how determined the president seems to believe his troops are. The ironic part is that there will be no draft as long as Rumsfeld retains his position, as he has promised that the draft is not needed to complete the mission. In other words, while Rumsfeld and enough people believe that things go smoothly, all is well - at least until they don't. But before utterly complete disaster and civil war happens, "people" have to be convinced that things go badly enough to warrant terribly unpopular means to turn project "United Iraq" around.

I mean, it's genious, really. Noone wants to have the draft, or as earlier - to spend a huge pile of money on the war, so when the president states that all is well, no wonder so many agree with him. Frankly, I hope for the sake of the troops already in Iraq that things go as well as Rumsfeld believes.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2004, 06:22 AM
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For me the whole idea of a draft is just way out there, especially in this case: Forcing people to kill other people to push some political agenda, supported by lies from a guy who did everything to avoid picking up a gun himself.

Oh, by the way, what happens to people who give the finger and burn the flag (seriously)?
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Old 01-01-2005, 01:17 PM
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